This question was posed to me by a poster named Ice Cream. I don't know my answer yet. It's one of those, "If you could have just one wish.." kind of questions. It has me thinking and I'll post my question soon. In the meantime, what would yours be?
Franklin Massey
JoinedPosts by Franklin Massey
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If you could ask one question to an active JW to get them to open their mind about their beliefs, what would it be?
by Franklin Massey inthis question was posed to me by a poster named ice cream.
i don't know my answer yet.
it's one of those, "if you could have just one wish.." kind of questions.
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New Board members within the last 1 year.....
by stuckinamovement ini can't believe the amount of new posters this board is getting.
it seems as if every day there are at least 2 to 3.. if you are a new poster, what made you decide to stop lurking and start posting?
how many of us are there that have joined in the last year?.
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Franklin Massey
@Hoffnung: You said, "You know that in many cases, sins are not forgiven, people in the most difficult time in their lives just get a good kick in the butt, and find themselves unprepared alone in the world for the very 1st time. I feel that the JC arrangement is not in accord with bible."
I couldn't agree more. I understand the need to help those who are facing problems in their lives. I understand the need to protect the congregation in the instance of a serious threat. However, many JCs do not revolve around serious threats. Many are personal matters or matters involving very few people and of which the issue at hand does not affect the congregation at large. Add to that the fact that we are imperfect and should not be set up to judge other human beings. It just kills me when I can tell that someone is given a negative sentence due to an "unrepentant attitude" (as deemed by a JC) when in all actuality, they are just vulnerable, or inable to communicate openly and freely with a group of men who are there as a formal committee of judges. I know of one young girl, an old friend of mine, who was disfellowshipped because she didn't cry at her judicial meeting. To the JC, tears of regret and sorrow were the criteria for repentence. No tears, no reproof. If they actually knew her, they would have known that she was painfully shy and had some traumatic experiences that rendered her unable to tap in to deep emotion at times. When things got tense, she just shut off. They thought she was being rebellious or uncooperative. As a testament to her faith, she stuck it out and eventually came back so that she could interact with friends and family.
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New Board members within the last 1 year.....
by stuckinamovement ini can't believe the amount of new posters this board is getting.
it seems as if every day there are at least 2 to 3.. if you are a new poster, what made you decide to stop lurking and start posting?
how many of us are there that have joined in the last year?.
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Franklin Massey
@Reopened Mind: I have lots of family and many close friends in the org. It does complicate matters greatly.
@Scott77: Your request was, "Please, tell us about watchtower-sponsored stalking and and illegal surveilance on active, inactive and disassociated or Desfellowed JWs. Alot of people including myself,have been complaining about this horrible and imcomprehensible activities on the part of JW leaders." I cannot help you here, as I have had no experience in, nor have I witnessed, what could be referred to as "Watchtower sponsored stalking" or "illegal surveillance." I can only speak for myself and the men I have worked with. I'm not saying it doesn't go on or hasn't happened. When I was younger, there were two elders removed from my hall for being too aggressive and "staking out" publishers, hoping to catch them in some sort of sin. Note that they were removed. The rest of the body found this conduct to be disgusting. There are many good brothers serving now who agree with a statement made by a Circuit Overseer in a recent elder's meeting: "We are not police. We dispense the counsel and hope for the best." Most brothers I work with have spent sleepless nights worrying about the issues facing the congregation. They absolutely hate having to handle Judicial matters. I've seen elders break down in tears, emotionally disturbed about having to deal with heavy issues in the congregation. Please, do not lump all "JW leaders" in with the rotten few who don't deserve any position of responsibility in the first place.
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New Board members within the last 1 year.....
by stuckinamovement ini can't believe the amount of new posters this board is getting.
it seems as if every day there are at least 2 to 3.. if you are a new poster, what made you decide to stop lurking and start posting?
how many of us are there that have joined in the last year?.
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Franklin Massey
I'm a brand new member but have been lurking for almost two years. My reasons for joining have already been covered by other posters. One thing I want to make clear to any lurkers reading this thread is that I am an appointed man. I could very well be a brother in your congregation; giving talks, making shepherding calls, leading field service groups. I say this not to intimidate you but to help you understand that there are many other active sisters and brothers with questions, doubts, and concerns about various facets of our religion. You have every right to ask questions. If what you have is the absolute truth, then it will stand the test under scrutiny. I arrived here while doing the deep personal study that JWs are encouraged to do on a regular basis. I had questions that WT publications could not, or would not, answer. Thus, I went searching. You are probably searching too for reasons all your own. Continue your search. Do not be dismayed by what anyone (in the organization or outside of it) tells you. You are the judge and jury for what 'truth' is for you at this stage of your life. Be honest with yourself and reasonable as to any new information you may find. Remember the Boreans, who took nothing at face value, but rather, tested everything they heard to see if it was true. For some, being a JW and believing all of the doctrines as published by the WTBS is a good fit. For others, it just doesn't add up. I understand the hypocritical nature of being a servant and being a member of this site. It's something that I wrestle with daily. If you are uspet by this, I ask only for your patience and forgiveness. For the present, I will continue to work hard to serve in the best capacity that my conscience will allow. At the same time, I will use this site as an outlet to exercise my freedom of speech and to keep my relative sanity under what have become for me, opressive intellectual circumstances. Who knows what the future holds?
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How many of your elders & servants are "Preachers Who Are Not Believers?"
by Franklin Massey inmany people in positions of teaching others the doctrine of their particular religion do not actually believe the doctrine themselves.
this is a fascinating article from daniel dennett and linda lascola.
i could relate to some of the expressions made.. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/non-believing-clergy.pdf.
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Franklin Massey
Good theories/observations on field service. The realities are very telling. There are several publishers in our hall that the pioneers love to work with because if they offer to drive the group in the ministry, it's going to be "an easy day." Long breaks, scenic routes from call-to-call, working the furthest corners of the territory, listening to music, etc. I'm not opposed to that. In fact, I like being in an "easy" group too. But it pains me to think that all those hours spent avoiding actual door-to-door preaching show up on the annual reports as hours spent in door-to-door preaching.
How about teaching parts during the meetings? If you give parts, how do you make it work for you? If you are an observer, have you noticed brothers who work hard to play down certain topics that they may not be comfortable speaking on?
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How many of your elders & servants are "Preachers Who Are Not Believers?"
by Franklin Massey inmany people in positions of teaching others the doctrine of their particular religion do not actually believe the doctrine themselves.
this is a fascinating article from daniel dennett and linda lascola.
i could relate to some of the expressions made.. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/non-believing-clergy.pdf.
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Franklin Massey
In regard to the comments on field service, I'm reminded of something that I have heard so many JWs, including myself, say when the final few days of the month are rolling around, "I HAVE to get out in service. My field service time is so low this month and this is the last Saturday."
It's common knowledge that there is an unstated minimum number of hours one should get so as to keep the elders off their back. Even the elders play this game.
As a preacher with differing views from the organization for which I profess to preach, I am struggling with field service right now. I don't feel right placing much of what JWs publish and at the same time, I don't feel right counting time when I am having a truly enlightening spiritual discussion with someone because deep down I know that isn't the kind of "time" the Society wants to see on a report.
My apologies. Don't let me get this thread off topic with too much personal info. More comments on being/knowing a preacher with doubts please...
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How many of your elders & servants are "Preachers Who Are Not Believers?"
by Franklin Massey inmany people in positions of teaching others the doctrine of their particular religion do not actually believe the doctrine themselves.
this is a fascinating article from daniel dennett and linda lascola.
i could relate to some of the expressions made.. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/non-believing-clergy.pdf.
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Franklin Massey
Many people in positions of teaching others the doctrine of their particular religion do not actually believe the doctrine themselves. This is a fascinating article from Daniel Dennett and Linda LaScola. I could relate to some of the expressions made.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/Non-Believing-Clergy.pdf
One preacher quoted in the article:
"Even if Christianity isn’t true, is it best to leave the people alone in their ignorance? And I struggle with that feeling of superiority intellectually, which I’ve read all kinds of faith literature, and they say that’s just a struggle you’ve got to deal with. But is it better to leave them ---? And they’re happy, and they have hope in a life to come, and so it helps them through their suffering, which is a strong selling point of Christianity. You know what I’m saying? I look at things a lot more in kind of a marketing form now."
Meanwhile, he struggles through his job, hiding his beliefs.
"Here’s how I’m handling my job on Sunday mornings: I see it as play acting. I kind of see myself as taking on a role of a believer in a worship service, and performing. Because I know what to say. I know how to pray publicly. I can lead singing. I love singing. I don’t believe what I’m saying anymore in some of these songs. But I see it as taking on the role and performing. Maybe that’s what it takes for me to get myself through this, but that’s what I’m doing."
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4/15/11 Watchtower--quote on ministerial servants
by sd-7 inso did anyone notice the statement on page 11, paragraph 11?
"if a brother has been baptized at least one year and to a reasonable degree meets the scriptural qualifications fo rministerial servants outlined at 1 timothy 3:8-13, he can be recommended for appointment.
" i thought paul specifically warned against appointing a "newly converted man"?
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Franklin Massey
There is a big push in our circuit for "qualified men" to cover a plethora of responsibilites. The bar has indeed lowered as responsibilities that used to be "elders-only" are now being handled by ministerial servants. It's all downhill from there as many "servants-only" jobs are being handled by non-servants and sometimes even sisters.
miseryloveselders posted, "In harmony with the motive behind this article, being that they're desperate for men, its evident in our congregation. We have several men who want absolutely nothing to do with a formal title. A couple are already doing pretty much the work of a ministerial servant, but they don't want the title and the hassle that comes with it."
Same in my area. Also a lot of long-time MSs who continue to turn down the elder position when it is offered.
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Only the Governing Body is the FDS
by Listener ini hadn't noticed this before but the governing body is actually saying that they only are the faithful & discreet slave.. watchtower 2009 6/15 para 18 .
similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class.
they make up the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.
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Franklin Massey
misery said, "I think to myself at times that, had I been familiar with the NT as a mature adult, and a couple JWs showed up at my door, and let just assume hypothetically speaking that I bit. Just assume that I bit long enough to entertain a bible study, and even attend meetings regularly. Eventually I'd be exposed to the F&DS doctrine, and I have a hard time believing that nobody in their right mind wouldn't question the lunacy of this doctrine. As a born-in during my teenage years I couldn't wrap my brain around this teaching. As an adult, I cannot wrap my head around it. The only difference now as an adult is when I try to accept this doctrine, my head starts to hurt. I know I'm not crazy, and I know there has to be other mature thinking Christians amongst the higher ups in this organization who have entertained themselves with the very question we're discussing."
So you fantasize about what it would be like if you weren't ever a JW and how you would view the, *ahem* unique, doctrines if they were presented to you now? Glad I'm not alone! I find this role play to be a good thought exercise to keep my mind sharp and not regress back to the indoctrination I've recieved my whole life.
One problem with long-timers/born-ins is that in everyday conversation, the FDS and Governing Body are often spoken of as one in the same. Add to that the idea that there is some sort of God-given magic that these men have. One big eye-opener for me was a talk by a GB member in which he candidly stated that the GB and the annointed are not necessarily granted any more Holy Spirit than the average publisher. There are WT articles that carry the same thought. I had heard this before but for some reason, I always ignored the implications of that comment, choosing instead to think that they must be getting a little extra power and direction. Turns out that it is another one of those old fashioned ideas that has lingered on in WT mythology.
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I told my daughter I was leaving "the truth" this weekend.
by whathappened inlast week, i told you i was going to tell my daughter that i was leaving the truth this weekend and you all gave me sound advice.
but, i cannot keep a secret this heavy from the person i love most on this earth, my only daughter, who is beautiful inside and out.. well, i have always had an open and honest relationship with my daughter, and i guess it paid off.
this weekend i visited my daughter (who lives in another state) and i told her i was leaving "the truth.
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Franklin Massey
*whew* That was powerful and moving. You had to make a tough call and it seems to have been the right one. Nicely done.
Thinking back to where my mind was a few years ago (heavily soaked in WT theology), you did a masterful thing by presenting only information from the WT publications. That being said, I think that Scott77's suggestion of "do not forget to encourage her to visit jwn.net for more updates. freeminds.org is also a good site too," is an unwise one at this stage. Granted, I don't know your daughter; but from your description above, I would allow her to ruminate on the info you presented to her and let it do the work for a while. No need to rush things. You were wise not to use the terms "cult" and "apostate." If you told her to visit these sites, where that language (and even harsher dialogue) is used, it could turn her off to the truths you already showed her.
My two cents, and all my best to you during this challenging time.